A recent exchange between some old friends on Facebook has me thinking about some deeper issues lately. Pastor Rob Bell recently published a book called "Love Wins" in which he apparently called into question the traditional christian beliefs of heaven and hell (and to be fair, I have not read the book yet).
I'm certainly no theologian, so I won't be using fancy seminary type language as I describe these things that I sometimes wonder about. Hopefully, should any seminary types read this posting, I will be forgiven for my ignorance.
I am a Christian. By that I mean that I believe in a creator of the universe that I call God the Father. I believe that God exists in three forms - the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that God, working through men as far back as the disciples, has guided and directed the formation of the Bible for the spiritual instruction and nourishment of those who choose to read it.
I believe that Jesus Christ came as mankind's first face to face with God. As a man he had to be born of the flesh and so God brought him in to this world through the virgin Mary. I believe that Christ came to call men back to God, that he lived a sinless life, and that he became the final sacrifice for mankind's sin through his death on the cross and then his resurrection.
Those who accept this sacrifice by confessing their sinfulness and surrendering their lives to God are redeemed from the "wages of sin" and can be certain that after death they will be united with God in heaven.
And that brings us to the current issue...
What of those who choose NOT to turn to God?
What of those who follow a different belief system for their life?
What of those who live good lives, but reject the notion of a God or afterlife?
There are certainly other difficult questions if you choose to live a life devoted to the christian God. In many ways, these questions can be even more difficult than the question of heaven and hell. Why is there so much suffering? Why would a loving God allow for the presence of so much evil in the world?
I don't know the answers to these questions either.
Universalism is a belief that all people will be taken to heaven at some point. I'm sure I've oversimplified it to the extreme, but I think that's the gist. Anyway, as I understand it, the idea here is that a loving God would never allow a single person to suffer forever, and that an all powerful God will eventually triumph over all evil and redeem every single soul to heaven.
Well...I don't buy that.
I've been reading and studying the Bible on and off again for nearly 30 years. And while I'm no expert, it seems clear to me from it's writings that there is ultimately a delineation between the people of the world. Eventually the faithful are separated from the unfaithful.
The God that I have tried to follow throughout my life is a God who seems to want US to decide. He wants US to choose to seek Him out. He wants US to make decisions in our life that are consistent with the knowledge He has given us. Choosing to me implies that there is in fact right and wrong choices to be made. In fact I think there are many different paths - one that is the best, some that are not the best will eventually get us there, and others that, for various reasons, may just be wrong.
If ultimately we all win, why the decisions along the way?
If the serial killer and the zealot both spend eternity in heaven, what's the point?
Here is about the point that I always find myself pausing to remember that ME trying to figure out the mind of God is a futile exercise. I long ago accepted that God is far too vast for me to even begin to understand the deep whys and hows of the universe. At the same time, surely God plans to remain consistent to what we know of Him through His word.
I do believe, have long believed in fact, that there are going to be some big surprises in store for me when I enter heaven. I fully expect to find people there who I never thought would be there. I'm not at all convinced that only those who took on the label of "Christian" will be spending eternity with God.
For example, much of the Bible is concerned with the Israelites and God's love for them. Who could possibly believe that those who walk in the footsteps of God's chosen people will be left behind because of a doctrinal difference?
For that matter, God is big and vast, certainly big and vast enough to use different approaches to reach out to people of different worlds/cultures. Is the idea of the christian faith being the only type of faith journey that God allowed for, consistent with an all knowing and all powerful creator God of the universe?
With all that being said, I must say that I DO believe in Hell. I do believe that this life we live MATTERS.
God has given us life, and He has given us choices to make. He has surrounded us, according to the Bible, with sufficient evidence of His existence "so that no man has an excuse." The ways to God may vary, and I believe they likely do, but ultimately the life we live reflects the choice we make.
Have we chosen to live in a way that honors God?
Or have we chosen to live a life that honors our self?
To me this is the crux.
If all get an eventual free pass to eternity in heaven, the whole point of the guidance found through scripture, through fellow believers, through prayer, is meaningless. In fact, it seems a bit like a nasty game for a God to be playing.
If charity doesn't matter, why not hoard and steal? If honesty doesn't matter, why not lie when it is profitable? If faithfulness is irrelevant, why not live a life of hedonism?
Oh well...
Again, I'm no theologian...
I'm certainly no theologian, so I won't be using fancy seminary type language as I describe these things that I sometimes wonder about. Hopefully, should any seminary types read this posting, I will be forgiven for my ignorance.
I am a Christian. By that I mean that I believe in a creator of the universe that I call God the Father. I believe that God exists in three forms - the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that God, working through men as far back as the disciples, has guided and directed the formation of the Bible for the spiritual instruction and nourishment of those who choose to read it.
I believe that Jesus Christ came as mankind's first face to face with God. As a man he had to be born of the flesh and so God brought him in to this world through the virgin Mary. I believe that Christ came to call men back to God, that he lived a sinless life, and that he became the final sacrifice for mankind's sin through his death on the cross and then his resurrection.
Those who accept this sacrifice by confessing their sinfulness and surrendering their lives to God are redeemed from the "wages of sin" and can be certain that after death they will be united with God in heaven.
And that brings us to the current issue...
What of those who choose NOT to turn to God?
What of those who follow a different belief system for their life?
What of those who live good lives, but reject the notion of a God or afterlife?
There are certainly other difficult questions if you choose to live a life devoted to the christian God. In many ways, these questions can be even more difficult than the question of heaven and hell. Why is there so much suffering? Why would a loving God allow for the presence of so much evil in the world?
I don't know the answers to these questions either.
Universalism is a belief that all people will be taken to heaven at some point. I'm sure I've oversimplified it to the extreme, but I think that's the gist. Anyway, as I understand it, the idea here is that a loving God would never allow a single person to suffer forever, and that an all powerful God will eventually triumph over all evil and redeem every single soul to heaven.
Well...I don't buy that.
I've been reading and studying the Bible on and off again for nearly 30 years. And while I'm no expert, it seems clear to me from it's writings that there is ultimately a delineation between the people of the world. Eventually the faithful are separated from the unfaithful.
The God that I have tried to follow throughout my life is a God who seems to want US to decide. He wants US to choose to seek Him out. He wants US to make decisions in our life that are consistent with the knowledge He has given us. Choosing to me implies that there is in fact right and wrong choices to be made. In fact I think there are many different paths - one that is the best, some that are not the best will eventually get us there, and others that, for various reasons, may just be wrong.
If ultimately we all win, why the decisions along the way?
If the serial killer and the zealot both spend eternity in heaven, what's the point?
Here is about the point that I always find myself pausing to remember that ME trying to figure out the mind of God is a futile exercise. I long ago accepted that God is far too vast for me to even begin to understand the deep whys and hows of the universe. At the same time, surely God plans to remain consistent to what we know of Him through His word.
I do believe, have long believed in fact, that there are going to be some big surprises in store for me when I enter heaven. I fully expect to find people there who I never thought would be there. I'm not at all convinced that only those who took on the label of "Christian" will be spending eternity with God.
For example, much of the Bible is concerned with the Israelites and God's love for them. Who could possibly believe that those who walk in the footsteps of God's chosen people will be left behind because of a doctrinal difference?
For that matter, God is big and vast, certainly big and vast enough to use different approaches to reach out to people of different worlds/cultures. Is the idea of the christian faith being the only type of faith journey that God allowed for, consistent with an all knowing and all powerful creator God of the universe?
With all that being said, I must say that I DO believe in Hell. I do believe that this life we live MATTERS.
God has given us life, and He has given us choices to make. He has surrounded us, according to the Bible, with sufficient evidence of His existence "so that no man has an excuse." The ways to God may vary, and I believe they likely do, but ultimately the life we live reflects the choice we make.
Have we chosen to live in a way that honors God?
Or have we chosen to live a life that honors our self?
To me this is the crux.
If all get an eventual free pass to eternity in heaven, the whole point of the guidance found through scripture, through fellow believers, through prayer, is meaningless. In fact, it seems a bit like a nasty game for a God to be playing.
If charity doesn't matter, why not hoard and steal? If honesty doesn't matter, why not lie when it is profitable? If faithfulness is irrelevant, why not live a life of hedonism?
Oh well...
Again, I'm no theologian...
Excellent reflection my friend. You are asking important questions...which is what I was attempting in the facebook exchange you reference.
ReplyDeleteI'm taken by your comment about God not playing a nasty game. Frankly, that is why I am questioning the traditional portrayal of hell. Isn't it a nasty game for God to play to create a place of torment from which there is no redemption in order to scare us into loving God? How would we view a human parent who acted this way?
Now, I do struggle with the concept of a free pass and the need for justice as much as I struggle with the concept that Jesus is the "get out of hell free" card (I mean, are we really saying that Jesus had to die to save us from God?) So I have a belief in hell. And just like the proclamation of Jesus that the Reign of God has come near (already but not yet) so, too, hell exists in the here and now. Simply put, hell is separation from God, it is a choice we make. The grace of God is not something to be earned (if so, it would by definition not be grace) so it is simply a matter of believing that God wants to save us and thus being set free to live in heaven, not only in some eternal sense, but having eternal (i.e. not limited by time, as opposed to neverending) life right now.
I understand that some (perhaps many, or even most) people will not make that choice and will continue in hell, some even to the end of their earthly lives. All I'm saying is that I can't believe that God, who loved us enough to send Jesus, is content to let the story end there. If we can imagine hell as a place where the gates are locked, then they are locked from the inside and Jesus is leading an assault on those gates to liberate every last lost soul. (I owe this thought to Walter Rauschenbusch, btw).
THAT'S what I call good news.
If you have the time and inclination, watch this video where the preacher lays out a very complete and convincing biblical argument for the salvation of all http://vimeo.com/11311695
ReplyDeleteVery interesting and though provoking post, Bill. Thanks for sharing it.
ReplyDelete~ Cissy {SWL/Cecie/oh dear I have too many names ;-)}
Good job on both the post and the reply by CD. Well thought out. Now this is a dialog.
ReplyDeleteI did get around to watching the video that you suggested Ian. It was very interesting, and I thought it was a well thought out and well supported argument.
ReplyDeleteI also did some research on Hiett after the video, wondering what became of him as a result of this message. Found a document he prepared answering the question as to whether or not he was preaching heresy. It included some correspondence back and forth between he and the Presbytery - again, interesting reading.
The one thing that Hiett said in the document that I can best relate to is that these types of matters are things we cannot/do not know for certain about. And they are not "fundamentals" of the faith. As such, they are good from the standpoint of causing us to think deeply about our faith and what we believe, but probably shouldn't be allowed to become things that drive wedges between us.
I loved the parable of the vineyard and the issue of whether we would choose to continue as employees of the vineyard, or take our place as members of the family. That really made me think alot, particularly in relation to questions that come to me about what motivates people to serve God during this earthly life if we believe we are all getting to heaven anyway.
In the end, I still find myself focused on the issue of choice and free will. To me, God created man with free will to decide whether or not to accept God. That freedom of choice only makes sense to me if there is also a choice of ultimate outcomes - i.e. heaven and hell.
Hiett addressed this issue in another thing I read by suggesting that, while we are indeed created with free will, we are incapable of choosing rightly in our sin. God moves in our lives to guide us to turning to Him, knowing that if we do, we will improve our ability to choose rightly thanks to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Either way, I guess the bottom line is that, while I like the idea that God chooses to redeem all in the end, something inside me still believes that there will indeed be those who choose eternal separation.
Label me a work in progress...